The Art of Being Well Podcast
JW joins The Art of Being Well Podcast to talk about plant therapeutics and the overlooked health benefits of plants like kava and kratom for calming daily anxiety, focus and energy. Plus, a look at the differences are between synthetic and natural substances.
Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 The following podcast is a dear media production. This episode is brought to you by my friends at Botanic Tonics. Hi, it's Dr. Wil Cole. This podcast is The Manifesto for a new breed of health seekers. This is the Art of Being Well,
Speaker 0 00:00:30 What's up? And welcome to The Art of Being. Well, I am a leading functional medicine expert. I get to consult people around the world via webcam. And I'm a New York Times bestselling author. I wrote Intuitive Fasting, the Inflammation Spectrum, and Keto. If you want to learn more about my clinical work, the Telehealth center that we have, the books, and there's lots of free resources there for you as well. You can check it all al@drwillcole.com. That's dr. R W I L L C O L e.com. And I have a brand new book that's for pre-order right now. It comes out early 2023, but if you pre-order now, we are giving away free time books. You can become a free gut Feelings v i p insider because we're giving away so many things from now until the book comes out. And it's called Gut Feelings. And it's talking about the bidirectional relationship between our thoughts and emotions, stress, shame, trauma, even intergenerational trauma, and our physical health.
Speaker 0 00:01:29 We talk all about the gut brain axis, the vagus nerve, somatic practices, things that I get to implement in patients' lives around the world. I finally get, I got to write about it and the book comes out very soon. You can pre-order it now. It's called Gut Feelings. We're talking about gut health and feelings and the interconnectedness between the two. Anyways, <laugh>, that's for another episode. We'll talk about it more later. But you can learn more about the book right now@drwilco.com. And listeners of The Art of Being Well, we are giving away free signed books also, if you go on over to Apple Podcasts and rate and review the art of being well there. So you can do it two different ways. You can leave your Instagram handle on your Apple Podcast review, or you can message me on Instagram at Dr. Will Cole and screenshot your Apple Podcast review and message me and do it that way.
Speaker 0 00:02:19 So either way is completely fine. And every month, no matter when you listen to this episode, every month, my team and I will be going through my messages on Instagram as well as the Apple Podcast review and randomly picking winners, reaching out to you personally and asking which book you won signed. And we'll send it out to you. So yeah, there you go. Alright, let's get to today's guest. You all are gonna learn so much from this human. His name is JW Ross. JW is a conscious entrepreneur and recovered alcohol addict. He created feel free, a feel-good wellness tonic of ancient plants from the South Pacific and South Asia where they've been used socially and in wellness for centuries. You're gonna learn about the history of it, the practical application of these plants. There's just so much to learn here. Alright, this is JW Ross's Art of Being. Well, jw, thanks so much for coming on The Art of Being. Well,
Speaker 2 00:03:19 Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 0 00:03:20 We're gonna learn so much from you today. I know the listeners are gonna love this conversation, but let's get started with how did you come to be in the wellness world? What's your, what was your journey to get you to this place?
Speaker 2 00:03:33 It's kind of a long, strange trip as they say.
Speaker 0 00:03:36 Let's go to the long and strange <laugh>. I wanna hear about it. Okay. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:03:41 So I really wasn't, you know, uh, expecting to be in the consumer package business. But, uh, I started out in the oil and gas business in Texas. And then from there I went to the FinTech business, financial Technology in Southeast Asia. And then I'd always been interested in, in plants, uh, plant medicines. My first experience with kava, which is the main ingredient that we're using, uh, was about 35 years ago on just a guy's trip over to Manoa too. And then I was introduced Toum, which is the other ingredient that we use in this, this blend, uh, while I was in Southeast Asia, living there for a couple years. But really what, you know, what's really started, my quest for this was, uh, it was just a personal thing of I had stopped drinking 12 years ago. And even though my life was much better, not drinking my life wasn't what I wanted it to be.
Speaker 2 00:04:44 And I was still looking for something that, uh, I've always had an issue with feeling kind of socially awkward, just not really feeling comfortable in my own skin around other people, especially larger groups of people. And alcohol was, you know, something that brought me out of that. And without that, you know, I just didn't really feel comfortable going around socializing with people. So I started, you know, exploring all the stuff that's in the market, legal, all the stuff in the market that's illegal. And what I found for me was that the legal stuff really didn't seem to do anything or didn't do what I wanted it to do. And then the illegal stuff did way too much. You know, I was looking for something that I could do before I work out during the day at work. You know, uh, could drive a car, you know, whatever, and not feel impaired.
Speaker 2 00:05:39 I wanted to feel good and be able to do what I normally would do during the day, and, uh, I just couldn't find it, the market. So it started me on this long journey of, you know, exploring Different plants have been used for centuries around the world for social lubrication and ordered, you know, hundreds of those in from different places. And none of them by themselves did what I wanted to do. And then I, I got the crazy idea to start trying to mix different ones together. Eventually I figured it out. Took, took a few years, but I figured it out.
Speaker 0 00:06:19 I love that. So, I mean, do you mind if I ask you what type of, like the experimentation, some of the highlight of the, the strange and weird, so maybe some of the illegal stuff. What did you try out there? It's, it's fascinating to hear the story.
Speaker 2 00:06:35 I tried pretty much everything on demand and probably some things that most people have never even heard of before.
Speaker 0 00:06:42 <laugh>, let's go there. What's the weirdest?
Speaker 2 00:06:44 I I was, you know, I was in a period where I'd sold out a one business and, you know, I was kind of doing a sabbatical. Uh, so I had the resources at the time mm-hmm. <affirmative> to really go out, just scour, you know, uh, everywhere to find, you know, everything I could get my hands on. And, you know, as far as the, I had no classical training in this, and I didn't really have a team of scientist or any of that. I, I literally just set up a, a makeshift lab in my house in the kitchen, uh, and experimented on myself and my, my wife, you know, especially being that she knew my background with alcohol and, and some other drugs earlier on, she was very concerned that I was, you know, headed down the wrong path. And, you know, some of these things, when you combine them, you get unintended results. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I had experiences where, you know, it really just amp you up to the point of being almost paranoia. Mm. And I had experiences where it literally within 30 minutes just knock you out. Wow. But I was, for some reason, deep down inside, I had this feeling that eventually I would figure it out. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I kept doing it until I figured it out.
Speaker 0 00:08:02 Yeah. There are, there's a growing amount of people and every time I post about alcohol on social media and the different research studies coming out of the scientific literature, looking at the health implications of alcohol, even small consumption of it, there's a mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's a polarizing topic, but I think there's a hunger and a, a thirst, if you will, out there that's almost palpable within our culture of people that intuitively know. And not just intuitively they're just observing their life and their friends' lives and their family's lives. And the, the destruction that oftentimes alcohol can bring on so many levels, just a societal destruction, but also a health impact too.
Speaker 2 00:08:40 You know, alcohol is very interesting. Cause, you know, in the west, it, it is so ingrained in our society. I mean, it's, you know, it's served with food. It's, it's served in celebrations, it's, you know, know, it, it, I can remember, you know, a time where, you know, in situations when I stopped, people would look at me actually as, you know, kind of funny because I wasn't drinking in that, you know, in that situation. And because it's just so ingrained that that's what we should be doing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And what, what's what's fascinating to me about it, because I know now is that, you know, when I did my research phase, I looked around the world and there's a handful of plants that have been used for thousands of years in different cultures around the world for social lubrication and alcohol is an outlier. And, and all of those, and the reason it's an outlier is all the rest of 'em are used in their natural form.
Speaker 2 00:09:40 They make like teas and stuff outta 'em, but they don't heavily process them. Alcohol is heavily processed. You know, the other thing that I've come to realize is that, you know, I'll be talking to someone and they're telling me, you know, what a wonderful diet they have. They don't eat junk food. They work out every day. They meditate, they do all this stuff, and they have a drink sitting in front of them. And I'm like, that's a junk food. <laugh>. Yeah. That's just process. Just anything else that you could put in your body. It's loaded with sugar and, you know, even smaller amounts of it is, you know, is, is not healthy for you mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, but they, they don't connect the dots. Either that or they don't wanna, uh, because again, from a very young age, they're educated that that's just, you know, that's part of the fabric of society.
Speaker 0 00:10:32 Yeah, it's true. And people have to, I see it when I'm consulting patients this reckoning, and I'm not anti-alcohol if people want to have it in a healthy way at some point in their journey. But I do feel like people need to have a come to Jesus moment, if you will, of their relationship with these things in their life. And if it's serving them, and oftentimes they see the exactly what you said, people have cleaned up their life tremendously, but they're stuck at this plateau. And they're still these things that are, that that're held on into their life that isn't serving them. And they don't want to go there. It's like this last vestige of this thing that they know isn't serving them, but they, and they feel like they have to live this bleak existence without alcohol. But the reality is, what we're gonna learn from you today is there's actually so many interesting, effective ways for us to have that social lubrication or relaxation or that ritual that, that people love and community, I think, around these things that people can love. So let, can we go, let's go to the South Pacific Proverb nation Okay. <laugh> and talk about, I'd love to talk about the history of kava, like how it's was used throughout history traditionally, and how it was prepared. I find that very interesting.
Speaker 2 00:11:40 So Kava has been used through the Pacific Islands for thousands of years. They didn't have alcohol up until we introduced it to them, unfortunately. So it's, uh, kava is the, uh, it's a shrub, uh, it's in the pepper plant family. And basically they take the roots, the rest of the plant they don't use, but they take the roots and they grind them up. I mean, traditionally, the way it originally was done, which is the way I had it the very first time, 30 something years ago, is they take a stone and grind the root up, and then the children in the village would chew it and spit it out. Uh, they'd chew it all day long and spit it out. And at night, the men, it was for men only would drink that out of, uh, what they call shells, which is a half of a coconut shell.
Speaker 2 00:12:36 And it was, you know, exactly like men going and gathering in a sports bar or something. I mean, it's that same setting of, you know, men just getting together and, and having a good time. But that's how, you know, for the first several thousand years, that's how it was, was done. That's even in, I just got back from a trip in Bewa too. And even even there now, even the most remote places I went to, which we went to some very remote places there now using, you know, more modern, they still, in some places were grinding it with stone, but they don't do the enzyme of, you know, chewing it and spinning it out and processing it that way. They just grind it up and then make a tea outta it.
Speaker 0 00:13:25 Got it. Interesting. And I know science is now looking at these different compounds within kava, and I know these compounds called kava Lacone are being researched as being at least part of the benefits about it. And we're gonna get into all the health benefits of it. But can you talk about the compounds and what science is looking at with kava? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:13:44 So, so the main ingredient that that kava uses is, uh, compounds they use, it's the kava. There's, there's 50 some different kava in the kava. Uh, we, we are just scratching the surface on what all of those do and don't do. Right. As you mentioned, I was actually we're setting up to do clinical trials, uh, later this year. And, uh, I was on with, uh, the company's doing the clinical for, and they mentioned that, uh, one of the major pharmaceutical companies, uh, they have a clinical going on right now for them, and they've synthesized a couple of the coones and they're coming out with a whole new line of anti-anxiety medications based on a couple of these coones. So it, it's, it's fascinating to me that, you know, big pharma now is jumping into plant medicines, <laugh>, but they're doing the same old thing that they've always done. They're not leaving it the way that it, it Mother Nature intended it to be. Yeah. They're taking it and synthesizing it and making, you know, drugs outta it. Yeah. And the only real reason, I mean, we had the, I had a really deep conversation with the, the CEO of this company that does these clinicals. The only real reason that they would be doing that, because it works incredibly effective in its natural form, is that they wanna be able to pass
Speaker 0 00:15:14 Yeah. Completely patent.
Speaker 2 00:15:15 They wanna build a mo around it. Right. And so it has nothing to do with making it better. I would even argue it. It's making it not as good. Yeah. It's about building a moat Yep. With a patent and owning it and making billions of dollars. Yep. Which is unfortunate. It is. Which is, you know, even on a more macro scale, that's why I think here in the West, our medicine is defaulted to synthetics. It has nothing to do with health. It has to do with, with money and patents. Yep. Because you can't patent plants. Yep. You know what I'm discovering more and more, especially now that we have our own r and d lab, uh, with our own team of scientists, is that, you know, there's a plethora of plants out there that can do some amazing things just in their natural form mm-hmm. <affirmative>,
Speaker 2 00:16:08 But, you know, there's no one that's really put big commercial effort behind them because you can't, you can't ringfence them <laugh>. Yeah. So if you come up with something really good, everybody can, you know, just do the same thing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which for me that's fine. I mean, that, that's, I, I hope that, I hope that that does happen. But my thought is that it's good to be able to have the choices, like you talked about earlier, so that people, you know, if they wanna use the synthetics, that's fine, but if they want to go to the natural route, that's available for 'em too.
Speaker 0 00:16:39 Right. I, I a hundred percent agree. I want people to have, be pro-choice, have agency over their health, but also have informed consent. And I think a lot of times these synthetics, or even with alcohol, people don't, aren't really informed to hopefully conversations like this that can kind of really be empowered to make whatever decision they want for their lives.
Speaker 2 00:16:57 Yeah. The, the problem that I have with these synthetics is even doing clinicals is that, you know, those are very short snippets of time with very limited groups of people mm-hmm. <affirmative> to, to see what, you know, the, you know, potential adverse events are mm-hmm. <affirmative> with the naturals, you've got thousands of years with millions of people mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and you can look and see, you know, there wasn't really any, you know, major changes in health, more societal issues or anything else. So to me, that's a lot more safe and more proven than, you know, running a, you know, six month clinical and Yeah. And, and saying, you know, this is, this is fine for everybody because you really don't know. And then especially when you, you know, most people are stacking, you know, multiple different drugs together. Right. There's nobody that knows what that's doing. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:17:52 You're right. The, there's no research looking at all the different variables that come into play. And what I always find interesting when this co conversation around natural versus synthetic and all the different synergistic effects of the different compounds within nature that we don't even understand fully, but we know more than we've ever known, and how you can't fully mimic nature. You can't fully mimic the protective no synergy of it all. And then you go and isolate the compound that's cool and sexy and there's some signs around it, but then it comes with potential side effects when you do that because it's not these protective mechanisms that nature has given us. Isn't that the case so many times?
Speaker 2 00:18:28 It, it is. I mean, it, some of the, probably the more, uh, blaring examples of that one would be coca leaves and cocaine <laugh>.
Speaker 0 00:18:36 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 Because coca leaves by themselves have been used for, again, for centuries, people starting their teens and use 'em up into their eighties and have no societal or health issues. And it's a wonderful, uh, plant, uh, for altitude sickness for just, you know, increasing productivity, uh, alertness, cognitive, uh, but then you take, uh, solvents, mainly gasoline, and they process it and make cocaine out of which is basically taking two of the 50 some out and it becomes a much different animal. It's about getting high. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's about more, more and more and more of, it's very addictive. And I think what we're seeing with a lot of these synthesized drugs is it's the same thing. You know, they're, they're usually mimicked off something in nature. Yeah. But mother nature put all this other stuff in there to make sure that it was, that it had a good balance.
Speaker 2 00:19:37 And even more than that, mother nature also usually makes it very pungent. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> where it doesn't taste great. So you're not gonna be consuming, you know, a bunch of it because it doesn't taste great. Right. And so there's all these safeguards right around it. And then we come in and say, well, let's pick out these two little goodies out of it and let's, you know, get a 10000% more in our body than, than you could if you were taking it naturally. And then we wonder why we're having addiction issues and, and health issues and all that. And it's like, it's, you know, it's pretty easy to see why
Speaker 0 00:20:16 Exa Wow. Yeah. I think you've spoke to a lot of people right there that just see this madness sometimes in our world for centuries now. Right. I mean, we've been doing this and we don't seem to ever learn <laugh> that this is not gonna work out for us when we do this. Or at least come to the hefty price tag of our lives and the planet planet's life as well. So let's, the kavas mechanisms, these kava, and I know there's some studies to show that works on different neurotransmitters. So maybe we could talk about the anti-anxiety mechanisms here of how it works on gaba. Cuz there's a lot of people that are struggling with that. So they're, they're, they're anxious. There's the background anxiety. They're struggling with some form of maybe anxiety attacks. There's somewhere on that anxious spectrum that's most people, sadly, today. So how does this, yeah. How is this a tool within their toolbox?
Speaker 2 00:21:04 It, it works the same way as the synthesized, you know, anti, uh, anxiety medications. You know? It, it is, it's extremely effective though. I, I can remember just a week ago I was, I said I was in too, I took a group of people over and we went through, we actually went up into the, into the mountains and, and harvested some collar ourselves and carried it out and set up a knock mall, which is the kind of the bar equivalent there by the ocean. And grounded and had the traditional ceremony. Everybody had probably three or four shells, maybe five shells. And we were sitting down to dinner after that. And I was, I was watching everyone around the table. Cause some of these people had never had it before. And it was just, it's just incredible sense of calm, you know, everyone was just, they weren't into themselves.
Speaker 2 00:21:59 They were opened up, you know, talking to others. But it wa it was so different than alcohol. To me, alcohol is great, is a great social lubricant too. But what alcohol does, I think is it amplifies the person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what kava does is it quiets the person or quiets that stuff in your head and then allows you to focus on everybody else around you. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is a much different thing. You can, you could actually develop a much deeper conversation or relationship with the people around you because you're not preaching you, you're not, you're not amplified, you know, and you're not aggressive. You're open to receiving what they, you know, have to say. Mm-hmm. Uh, so you're listening more. You're, you know, you're, you're in tune with them. And it, it was one of the conversations that came up at, at dinner was because there were some people there from different areas that had traveled through different islands, is in the Samoan Islands, which is right north of there.
Speaker 2 00:23:04 They're, you know, heavy into alcohol. And in the Watu islands, there's, there's really still not much alcohol consumption. It's, it's, but everybody drinks. I mean, it's like, you know, everywhere mm-hmm. <affirmative> and the difference in the crime rates and, and all that, and just the violence. Yes. It's like night and day. It's the same people, but it's just the, the, the different, and I never really kind of connected the dots between that. But, you know, it's, it's not just about, to me, it's not just about personal health, it's also about society's health. Yes. And you can't deny that alcohol makes people aggressive. Yeah. Especially in larger, larger quantities.
Speaker 0 00:23:51 Yes. Man, I would love more studies done on that. Just same population of people, same background. One that's exposed to alcohol within the society one, and with plant medicines in kava. Like, people are not raging and beating people up over ka high on kava.
Speaker 2 00:24:07 Yeah. It, it's, you know, cause I made a comment at a few places. I was like, you know, why you don't lock the doors? You don't. They said, well, you know, we don't have those issues here. Wow. But you go over here, you know, the next set of islands where they're drinking. And it's just a whole different world. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:24:23 Wow. I mean, that's insane. But it makes complete sense. I know there's different studies, not just amongst the, the gaba, parasympathetic supporting, resting nervous system, supporting mechanisms, but also I've seen cool studies done on the neuroprotective benefits of these compounds within kava too. So there's a lot of listeners that are interested in longevity and brain optimization, and there's some promising research out there around the neuroprotective benefits too, right?
Speaker 2 00:24:52 There is, yes. I'm not, uh, I'm, well, you know, be upfront. Say I'm not a scientist, <laugh>, I kind of come at it from a different angle, but, uh, that's okay. But what I can tell you is that, uh, you know, having spent now quite a bit of time with, you know, large groups of people that, you know, are consuming kava, they're healthy, they live, you know, long, good natural lives. They're, they're content, they're happy. And, you know, the, the common factor that they have, they consume kava on a regular basis. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Speaker 0 00:25:31 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:25:32 So it, it's, it's doing, it's doing a lot more than what we understand today. That's why, you know, we have recently built out, uh, a very large, uh, r and d lab here in Santa Monica, uh, with a team of scientists. And our goal now is to really dig into and find out what all these different compounds are doing from a, you know, a a clinical side. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, what's even more fascinating is that it's like cannabis. There's a lot of different strains, and the ratios of these different compounds inside them vary mm-hmm. <affirmative> by plants from different areas and different strains that the other thing we're doing, which I think is fascinating, we're working with the University of Florida, uh, the botanists there, uh, we're, we're looking at growing both kava and CRAs in south Florida. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the, the kava omes in the cava and the alkaloids and theum, the plants use these as natural fungicides.
Speaker 2 00:26:42 Wow. So, you know, they're growing in areas where, you know, it's hot, moist. So there's a lot of different things that will, you know, attack them. So the plants are using these to keep, you know, bacteria and fungus. Fungus and things from, you know, from, uh, killing them. Basically. One of the things that we've done at the University of Florida is we have an orchard ofum and we introduce a pest on one side of the orchard and then monitor the different, uh, oid levels of the plants all the way across on the other side of the orchard. And what's fascinating is, is that once you introduce that past, very quickly, those plants on the other side of the orchard will start changing their aloid levels. Wow. So they're communicating, they can't be communicating through root systems cause they don't touch, they're communicating chemically through the air with each other. Wow. And warning the other plants that there's, you know, there's something coming and you need to be, you know, prepared for this. And the way that they prepare for is, is, is elevate or change the percentages of their alkaloids, which to me is just, oh my gosh. Basically the plant plants are talking to each other.
Speaker 0 00:27:57 Yes. I've seen similar studies you mentioned through the mycelium and the root systems that trees will actually pre protect each other and send their nutrients as they're dying to their babies first before they send their nutrients to other plants. Communicating as well, as far as threats are concerned. And now, like you said, it's not just the root system and the mycelium. It's these air compounds to communicate. It is profound. It is. I mean, the more and more I hear about science around this, it's like the, a avatar world is more realistic than you, we realize we're just not seeing it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:28:29 I, you know, I, in seeing this stuff, I'm brought back to, you know, very early in my life I did, uh, quite a bit of, uh, experimentation with psychedelics and mm-hmm. <affirmative> and just the, the feeling of, you know, when you're on a trip and you're out in nature and just how everything is so alive and everything's connected. Interconnecting. Yeah. Vibrating. And, you know, I think that's probably for us, the only time that our, our mind is open enough that we actually can see what's going on. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, there's a much bigger world out there mm-hmm. <affirmative> with every living thing that's around us Yeah. Than what we can tell when we're, you know, in our normal state, which is inside of ourselves,
Speaker 0 00:29:20 Yeah's so limited,
Speaker 2 00:29:20 Focused on ourselves.
Speaker 0 00:29:22 Yeah. You're absolutely right. And I love when science substantiates that you mentioned Crao, uh, for people mm-hmm. <affirmative> newer to that term. What's, what's Crao and how is it a great maybe combination synergistic, uh, tool to use in conjunction with kava?
Speaker 2 00:29:40 Soum is, uh, it's a tree that grows throughout Southeast Asia. Uh, it's in the coffee family. It doesn't use caffeine. It use OIDs. It's been used for thousands of years throughout Southeast Asia. Its primary use is for, uh, productivity enhancement endurance. So they grind the leaves and they make a tea out of it. So if you're, if you're ever traveling through rural Southeast Asia, you'll see these little roadside stands. They have these little bags with straws sticking in 'em mm-hmm. <affirmative> and people, it's very similar to like a Starbucks. They come by during the day on the way to work or at noon or whatever, and they have a, you know, a bag of, uh, of tea and they go on about their business. And it's, it's, it's an interesting plant in that it, it's not just about productivity enhancement mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, these workers are working, you know, very long days, harsh condition seven days a week, but you go out there and you watch them, they're not only doing it, they're having fun doing it.
30 Minute Mark
Speaker 2 00:30:48 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, they're laughing, they're, you know, singing, they're, you know, so it, it, it not only gives you productivity enhancement, but it also, you know, makes you feel good. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's a wonderful plant by itself. But as I said before, that really didn't give me the total feeling that I was looking for. It's when I married the two together, which is no one has ever done before, is I got the feeling I was looking for. So basically what's going on, and you have, you have different compounds. You have the, the OIDs, the Tums that are hitting the same receptors, but they're doing it with different, with different, you know, chemicals. Yeah. And one of 'em is uplifting and one of 'em is down downing mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So what you're getting is, is you're getting this, you know, kind of wavy thing in the middle mm-hmm. <affirmative> where they're, they're both working, but they're working different directions. Yeah. And what the result of that is, is, the best way I can describe it to people is chilled energy. It's not like a caffeine energy where you're, if you do so much of it, you get jittery and you're, you know, it's, it's, you're energized and you're, you're cognitive. You're, you're very focused on what you're doing mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but you're at the same time, you're chilled out.
Speaker 0 00:32:10 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:32:11 I know that sounds, it sounds like two totally different things, but the combination of the two is, is wonderful.
Speaker 0 00:32:19 Yeah. No, I, I I, I, I try to actually, within my clinic, I was at the clinic consulting patients, me and my clinic, my clinic manager and I, who's been with me for 12 years, she's on the podcast periodically too, talking about different patient case reviews and case studies. And we both tried it and we both said the same thing. It is a calming when you have a stressful day, I find it, it was a really nice way to center yourself and ground yourself, but still feel alert. Like, I don't really, I don't drink alcohol. So this is a, was a not the same thing at all. But I think that what are people seeking after when they drink is that calm, social lubrication. I definitely noticed that. Really. So I think you, you hit the nail on the head as far as the synergistic benefits of these plant compounds in a, in a way, I feel like it's a stronger, if you will, adaptogenic quality. You know, you the different adaptogens that are bidirectional as well. They're not it stimulating or depressing either. They're modulating and I feel like that's what you've do, did it in, in a deeper way with blending these two plant medicines.
Speaker 2 00:33:27 Yeah. What I, what I can tell you is that you can't just take kava and cra 'em and put it together.
Speaker 0 00:33:33 <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:33:34 Because again, there's, there's a lot of different, you know, uh, strains. And even in the strains themselves, there's, depending on the season, you get different ratios. It's something about these two specific ones. When they're combined, they balance really well. Yeah. I tried tens of thousands of combinations, and most of them will either take you too far one way or take you too far the other way. Yeah. So it, it's, you know, it's as always, it's a little more complicated than,
Speaker 0 00:34:07 Yeah. Well,
Speaker 2 00:34:08 You did what we would like it to be.
Speaker 0 00:34:10 Well, like you said, you've done a lot of research, self experimentation, but now with labs and really looking at all the different strains and optimizing it. Yeah. What,
Speaker 2 00:34:18 What we're doing now is we're, we're getting into the DNA of the plants, which sounds like it would be easier than the human dna, but actually plant's DNA is immensely more complex than human dna. Mm-hmm. Uh, so this is massive undertaking to really fully understand, you know, how all these different compounds are relating and working with each
Speaker 0 00:34:42 Other. Got it. Well, I'm excited to see as more and more studies come out, are there any precautions or is there any caveats that you would give to the listener out there, people maybe that shouldn't try this? Or is it really effective for just about everyone?
Speaker 2 00:34:56 So it's no different than any other type of substance or plant. There's gonna be, you know, a percentage of people that are gonna have varying degrees of, of being allergic to it. Um, you know, it could be peanuts or milk or bread or whatever. There's, you know, some percentage of people that, even alcohol, I didn't realize till I started study, and there's 6% of of society is, is allergic to alcohol. I'm not talking about just feeling bad. I'm talking about, you know, they actually have an allergic reaction to it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So there, there is a small percentage of people that will, will have, you know, and the, the reaction that you'll have is, is nausea. Mm. And it's just the body's mechanism of trying to, you know, purge whatever, you know, you put in out, it's not lasting and it goes away. But what I suggest to people is when you first try it, to try a much smaller amount and kind of stair step into it to figure out what your sensitivity to it is.
Speaker 2 00:36:03 You know, I'll say up front that it, unlike a lot of these other, uh, alcohol replacements that are out there currently on the market, this one actually works. So it, it's strong. I mean, it does make you feel different than what you felt before you put it in your body. So I think just, you know, take it in smaller doses to begin with mm-hmm. <affirmative> and feel your way into it. And yeah. I mean, even myself, I've been doing, uh, this current formulation for over three years now. I find myself consuming smaller and smaller quantities of it Hmm. In each serving. I started out doing like a full bottle. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:45 Uh, and I went to a half, and now I'm down to a third. Wow. I still consume the same amount during the day, but I don't, I get too much of a feeling if I took the full serving like I used to mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it would be, you know, a much more euphoric feeling than what I'm after during the day. There is some research out there around the reverse tolerance of kava. Uh, which, if that's true, that's the only thing I know of that can claim that I, I don't know if it's true or not. We're actually gonna do some work on that. But, uh, I think maybe I'm experiencing it myself personally, because I can't, you know, take as much as I could before in a single
Speaker 0 00:37:31 Dose. Interesting. I mean, talk about that being the ul also the opposite of alcohol, where people build up a tolerance, have to have more and more and more. And I would assume what's happening here is the receptor sites and your tissues are actually more receptive to it. To modulate these neurotransmitters, you just need less. And that's the other beau,
Speaker 2 00:37:49 Your body, your body, from what I've read, just in layman's terms, your body becomes better at processing.
Speaker 0 00:37:55 Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:37:56 It becomes more effective. Which again, is, I don't know of anything else that's, that, that happens. Yeah. There may be, but I, I've not read about it. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:38:06 Yeah. I think it's very, these adaptogenic qualities of these plant medicines, you just can't, again, we can't mimic them. We don't, we're not used to that in our synthetic binary world of, you know, manufactured things and understanding them, the, the different compounds, I think of making things more bioavailable in general. I think it's, it's very profound. Yeah. I could talk about this forever. It's fascinating. I, I, I, as you know, the podcast is called The Art of Being. Well, at the end of every episode, we have your Art of Being. Well, this is j W's Art of Being. Well, I'm gonna pick your brain on different things within wellness, and I'm curious to know your answers. Are you up for this? Yeah. Permittable Challenge. Okay, good. What is the worst tasting healthy food that you still eat? But it is not for the taste <laugh>. It's disgusting maybe, but you still have it because it's so good for you.
Speaker 2 00:38:55 Pure Green Cava by itself is, is pretty bad. I mean, it's not something that you would drink for pleasure. And fortunately we found a way to mask some of that with some natural flavors. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but, but Pure Green Cava by itself is, is pretty rank.
Speaker 0 00:39:14 Pretty pungent. Pretty pungent.
Speaker 2 00:39:16 Yes. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:39:18 Out of any vacation in the world, maybe you've not even taken it, but what's your ideal dream vacation?
Speaker 2 00:39:26 I actually, uh, through the pandemic, I got my second citizenship in Bata Alto. Wow. I've fallen in love with the, that area. And I actually, uh, on this recent trip, I purchased an island there,
Speaker 0 00:39:40 <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:39:40 Okay. So that's my favorite spot in the world. I mean, it's a small hundred 54 acre island in the middle of nowhere. And, uh, it's a place that the wildlife has no fear of humans, huge turtles, whatever. Just, you know, it's just, I've never seen anything like it, so. Very cool. When I have free time, that's where I go.
Speaker 0 00:40:03 I love it. I'll be right over jw. I'll be right.
Speaker 2 00:40:05 <laugh>. Yeah. Anytime you wanna go,
Speaker 0 00:40:07 <laugh>, that's a long flight, right? I mean, how long are we talking about? I mean, you're coming from Los Angeles, but
Speaker 2 00:40:12 Yeah. So it's, uh, it's, it's a day's travel Miss. You would fly, you know, through Fiji, and then it's, you know, you a couple hops. You go into the, the port villa, which is the capital of, uh, tu and then you fly from there and a little putter puer, and we have a grass strip on the island flying. Right.
Speaker 0 00:40:31 <laugh>. Wow. Well, still I'll stay at least a month. What, what if I make it there? <laugh>?
Speaker 2 00:40:35 You definitely wanna stay a while when you go. Yeah. Right. It's,
Speaker 0 00:40:38 It's a journey. Yeah. And not to get super, I mean, we're one of the people that's still my wife and I, my kids and I, we still watch Survivor. That's where they film a lot of the survivors.
Speaker 2 00:40:48 It was, yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a, what what's fascinating to me is, you know, in today's transparent society is that when I mentioned Bantu, nine outta 10 people never heard of it. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, and they'll say, well, where is it? You know? And I'm like, what's between Fiji and New Zealand? They go, okay. They, they, they know where Fiji is, they know where New Zealand is, but they've never, you know, and it's a, it's a wonderful country. It's, you know, it's got 80 islands and it's there. Incredible beauty, incredible people.
Speaker 0 00:41:18 Yeah. I'd love to visit. I've never been. What is your favorite restaurant in the world? And when you're there, what do you order?
Speaker 2 00:41:27 So probably I would say I was, when I was in Southeast Asia, was, uh, our main office was in Hanoi in Vietnam. And, uh, I don't remember the name of the restaurant, but there was this, there was a, a vegan restaurant that was close to our office that was just fabulous. It's some of the best food I ever had anywhere, any type of food.
Speaker 0 00:41:49 What did you get?
Speaker 2 00:41:50 They had pretty much everything, but one of the things that they had was a durian custard that was just unbelievable. And, you know, I don't know how many people know about durian. I,
Speaker 0 00:42:02 I don't know anything about it.
Speaker 2 00:42:03 The durian is, uh, is probably one of the only fruits that's banned on public transportation <laugh>. Really? Because it, the smell, oh my gosh. Smells horrible. <laugh>. Uh, so throughout Southeast Asia, they actually, you know, you'll get fined if you, if you're seeing eating it on public
Speaker 0 00:42:21 Train, you'll, you'll stink up the plane. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 00:42:23 You'll stick, you'll stink up the train or the bus or whatever. So they don't allow people to do that. But I don't know what this lady's doing, but she has a way of cooking and processing it that you don't have that real punt smell. It smells like running flash.
Speaker 0 00:42:38 Oh my
Speaker 2 00:42:39 Gosh. <laugh>. And, but the, but it's just, it's a fabulous food. Wow. And she makes like a key shot of it and several other things too.
Speaker 0 00:42:48 Very interesting. What's the weirdest wellness thing that you're willing to admit, admit that you've done on a podcast? Uh, yes. What, what is the weirdest thing?
Speaker 2 00:43:00 You know, I can't really think of anything extremely strange that I've done. I mean, I do the normal stuff. I'm religiously do coal plunge every night. I do, you know, saunas I do on occasion. Not that I would do hyperbaric and I do, you know, IVs on a regular basis and, and all of that.
Speaker 0 00:43:19 Got it.
Speaker 2 00:43:19 Kinda the normal, normal
Speaker 0 00:43:21 Stuff. You're pretty into the biohacking then. Pretty, uh, part of the, part of your routine. What's your routine with the cold plunge and the sauna? Do you have a specific ritual cycle that you do with the two of those? You know,
Speaker 2 00:43:32 It, it's, it's evolved over time. I now, I don't get it as cold as I used to, uh, drive 44 degrees versus the 39, and I stay in a little longer and I've started doing it, uh, in cycles. So I'll mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I'll go into sauna and then I'll get coale. I'll go back in the sauna and get the coale and go back and forth, which I think is traditionally how it was done. Yeah. You know, in, you know, where they'd had a, the sauna and they go out and jump in the frozen lake and go back in. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I find that to be just fabulous. And, and I do it at night before I go to sleep. Uh, which again, seems to be crazy cause you think that would wake you up, but it just allows me to have fabulous sleep.
Speaker 0 00:44:22 Yeah. I, I, I see it time and time again with patients. We put protocols together utilizing those two when they have access to them. And it is, it's a, a nervous system shift tremendously to support the parasympathetic. Uh, is, do you have any pro tips for people that are maybe new to the cold therapy? Their, their, the idea of getting into a cold ice bath is just daunting to them. Any things that helped you out when you started out?
Speaker 2 00:44:48 You know, it's, it's not a pleasant experience in the beginning. The first time you do it, I mean, your body has a natural reaction. Cause at 39 degrees, I think it's 15 minutes, the hypothermia sets in. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I mean, you basically die, right. So when you get in, the immediate reaction you have is, is your body's like, get the hell outta here.
Speaker 0 00:45:11 <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:45:11 Yeah. Kinda tense up. And the thing that I've found that works the best is to focus on your breath. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and even before you get in, is to do a series of breath exercises. Uh, you know, deep breathing and just kind of calming yourself and, you know, and getting your mind into that, I'm gonna do this. Right. And then you slip in. And I'm not saying that it's still a pleasant experience, <laugh> because it's, it's not, uh, especially like the first few times, but it does get better with time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I would say for people that just can't take it, that just altering a few degrees makes a huge difference. Yeah. And, and I still think you get the benefit out of it. I don't think there's that much difference between 39 and 44 degrees as far as the mm-hmm. <affirmative>, especially you staying a little longer, which you can Yeah. Between the health benefits.
Speaker 0 00:46:04 Yeah. Love it. All right, my friend. What, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much. What, where can people go to learn about all the amazing things that we've talked about and f also, I will put all the links that, that you've talked about within the show notes@drwilcole.com. But where can people go specifically to learn about the amazing things you're doing?
Speaker 2 00:46:25 So, uh, our website is botanic tonics.com and the product itself is, feel free, a little blue bottle. Currently, that shot bottle, which is two fluid ounces, is the only product that we offer. We are actually launching, uh, capsules, a capsule version of it in November. The, the main thing we get as far as negative feedback from people is the taste. They, they don't like, you know, how pungent it is. So we created the capsule version, uh, to eliminate that. It also, it's much easier to travel with and what Yeah. What have you, being in a capsule form versus a shop form.
Speaker 0 00:47:07 I love it. I like the taste. I didn't mind it, but I'm used to having weird, I would say made weirder things and more nature earthy things and I didn't mind it at all. And I think you did a good job with the, the natural sweeteners to offset some of the more pungent like plant things. But I agree with you. Like the, there are some people out there that's Yeah. Still want the capsules.
Speaker 2 00:47:28 Right. I like to describe it as an acquired taste <laugh>. And I remind people think about the first time you had gin that didn't taste very good either. But what happens is your mind over time realizes it associates how, how you're gonna feel with the taste. And yeah. I found myself now I actually enjoy the taste. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, cause you know, my mind is linked the two together, but, uh mm-hmm. <affirmative> for some people, they're just a lot more sensitive to, to punching things. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:47:59 Yeah. You're doing great things my friend. Thanks so much for coming on the podcast. Come back anytime.
Speaker 2 00:48:04 Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 0 00:48:06 What a great conversation exclusively for the art of being Well listeners, feel free. Botanic Tonics is offering a 40% off discount on your first purchase. 40%. You can try these therapeutic plans for yourself. All you have to do is use promo code Will Cole at checkout@botanictonics.com. Again, that's code will cole checkout@botanictonics.com. That's B O T A N I C T O N I cs com. Thanks again for listening to the Art Being Well. If you have a chance, please rate and review the podcast here, and if you like what you're hearing, hit follow and pass it along to a friend to see more. Head to dr will cole.com/podcast. I'll be back every Monday and Thursday, and I hope you will too, talk soon.
Speaker 4 00:49:46 Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this.
